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How to add a new segment on a shape [Resolved]

gbonneaugbonneau Member Posts: 23
edited August 2016 in Resolved Issues
Still learning to use Make the Cut as a newbie.

I tried to do a simple exercise and couldn't find how to add a segment to a simple shape. Problem: Let start with a simple rectangular shape. The shape is only 4 segments with 4 nodes. I can insert this shape easily with the add basic shape tool. Now l want to join a segment between 2 opposite nodes of the rectangular shape. I want to start from one of the corner node and go to the opposite corner node to make a diagonal. How can I do this. Anyone can give me the step to do this?
Post edited by Gabe on

Comments

  • GabeGabe Moderator Posts: 4,595
    @gbonneau, just use the pencil tool to draw a line.  Also, you can get your hands on a copy of the MTC user manual here:
    http://www.iloveknk.com/support/user-manuals/zing-user-manuals/

    The manual says Zing or Zing Air on it, but the majority of the manual is about using all the features of MTC.  While using the manual, just skip over the parts that are specifically for the Zing if that isn't the cutter you have.

    On the MTC & PCS Facebook group there is a file called Basic Node Editing that you can download.  You would need to join the group and then you can download the file from the FILES section.
  • gbonneaugbonneau Member Posts: 23
    edited August 2016
    I did read the manual and dig deep into it to try to find the answer. I know I can draw a line. But it create a new line shape that belong to the same layer. It doesn't add a new segment to the rectangular shape. It create a new shape (a line segment) and you end with 2 shapes within the same layer. Thus it doesn't answer the problem.
  • SandyMcCSandyMcC Member Posts: 7,647
    I'm the worst at interpreting words versus having pictures.  Reading what you wrote, I'm visualizing the following screenshot. Please explain if you want something different from this:


    Sandy McCauley
    Cutting with KNK Force, Maxx Air, Zing Orbit, Skycut C and D
    Over 90 free MTC videos: http://www.iloveknk.com/support/mtc-support/
    Latest MTC User Manuals: http://www.iloveknk.com/Support/user-manuals/
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,575
    edited August 2016
    a node can only have 2 segment attached
    if you want to draw a line diagonally from corner to corner first you will have to break the nodes on those corners
    the using the pencil hold ctrl and move the point over the broken node you should get a red ring indicating the line will attach to that node
    now draw a line to the over broken node

    this usually does not result in a closed path as for some the node join so reason the path result is
    like this

     

    not this


    there probably a good reason not sure what it is maybe the way the segments are stacked on other page ??

    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • leslie6111leslie6111 Member Posts: 2,380
    edited August 2016
    You cannot connect more than 2 paths to a given node. To an add a fill to a shape, it must be made up of a closed path. Andy has designed MTC so that it can cut an unclosed path - thus the use of the pencil tool and the spiral - this is a later feature he added .

    The rectangle in basic shapes is a closed shape. In the upper left I drew a line segment from the left top corner of the rectangle with the pencil tool. Since the line segment is not a closed shape - and not really a shape since it doesn't have thickness  it cannot be joined permanently to the rectangle at the corner node. But if sent this to the cutter, the blade would cut this diagonal as well as the rectangle. In the upper right case I used the the inverse eraser, which does "draw"  a shape (does the opposite than erase) and thus this is one shape. I could not get this thinner with the tool, but could go in if I wanted and manually make the diagonal section thinner by moving the nodes with the node tool. In the lower left, I broke the left upper corner node of the rectangle and connected this with a diagonal line segment I drew with the pencil tool. This shape is not closed. Thus no fill and can't be closed. In the lower right I just made  the right vertical side of the rectangle longer with the node editing tool. This is a closed shape because I did not add any line segments to it. As far as layers are concerned, this is all drawn on 1 layer. I could have done this on multiple layers, but as long as the layers are open, they will be cut and seen by the cutter. The shapes on the left side will cut out the same by the way.


     
  • gbonneaugbonneau Member Posts: 23
    edited August 2016
    @Crazy_Mr_Zing and @leslie6111 both of you helped me to better understand the design of the tool. Now I know the application understands 2 types of object. A closed path and an open path. Both objects defined as path are described by a bezier relationship. That is now clear.

    A tool that could take a shape having a closed path and let us join 2 nodes of the path with a segment would be great. This seems to be missing. Doing this would effectively split the single shape defined by one path with 2 shapes each having its own path and joined together. In my case for exemple joining 2 opposite node of the rectangle would create 2 rectangular triangle shape each having it own closed path. Note that this is not theoritical stuff. But a pratical problem I am having and I'll explain that later in another comment.

    This been said and given the experience you both have with the application how would you do to take an existing rectangular shape and split it through it diagonal to provide 2 rectangular triangle joined together in a single layer. I'd like a solution that would keep the exact position of the existing nodes of the original rectangular shape.
    Post edited by gbonneau on
  • gbonneaugbonneau Member Posts: 23
    edited August 2016
    OK! Using the instructions of @Crazy_Mr_Zing and digging in the user manual I believe I am close to a solution.

    1- Draw a rectangular shape.
    2- Break a corner node
    3- Break the opposite corner node
    4- Using the pen draw a line between the opposite broken nodes.
    5- Draw again with the pen a second line between the same broken nodes.



    You end with exactly what I want. However if I try to split or break the new shape I got the message: There have been no changes made since there is nothing to break. This seems strange since I would expect to get two rectangular triangle.
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,575
    edited August 2016
    I think what you asking is possible it would involve 2 diagonal lines each close the right paths to from the 2 triangle
    unless you require to print those 2 triangles as solid shapes i see no point in having the 2 diagonal lines
    eg with each these example of joining the node diagonally the cutting result is the same apart from in red/blue shape the blade will pass over the diagonal path twice as there are duplicate line form each close triangle

    So to create the red blue shapes involves a little trickery
    break the nodes on the diagonal corners
    the perform a break on the shape
    so now you have 2 separated right angle paths
    now select one of the right angle path and cut
    use the path edit tool click on the end node of the remaining right angle path and select join to closest node with line result a closed triangle path
    now paste the cut right back using paste in place
    use the path edit tool click on the end node of the pasted right angle path and select join to closest node with line result another closed triangle path

    The reason i see no point is the cutting result is a red triangle and a blue cut out moving the rectangle apart so you can join the correct nodes would result in the same



    I guess is you which to print and cut a rectangle the was half red and half blue you would do a texture snapshot thereby merging the triangle back into a 2 colour rectangle close path resulting in Rectangle Cut Out like this


    I don't really understand this part A tool that could take a shape having a closed path and let us join 2 nodes of the path with a segment would be great
    but will add paths only only serve one purpose the define the path the blade cuts

    a close path can contain printable content eg colour or a image

    (that said you can set the path (cut line to print but this is not usually require for more projects )


    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • SandyMcCSandyMcC Member Posts: 7,647
    Another way to do it involves the Erase function. Set it to the minimum which is 0.026mm.  Then, holding the Shift key, drag the mouse from one corner to the opposite corner, making sure you go complete through the corners. Then select the shape, apply Break, and you have two separate closed shapes. 

    The feature you're wanting is called the "Closed Ginsu" in our original software, KNK Studio.  You could cut through any closed shape and it created two closed shapes based on that cut line.
    Sandy McCauley
    Cutting with KNK Force, Maxx Air, Zing Orbit, Skycut C and D
    Over 90 free MTC videos: http://www.iloveknk.com/support/mtc-support/
    Latest MTC User Manuals: http://www.iloveknk.com/Support/user-manuals/
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,575
    @Sandymcc I will have to try that I guess you would be eyeballing the exact corner . I always have issues eyeballing I seem forget I'm cutting something craft related not a part for the space shuttle LOL
    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • SandyMcCSandyMcC Member Posts: 7,647
    Very true, @Crazy_Mr_Zing . It's not necessarily easy to precisely nail those corners.  In fact, in this particular example, I would just create a triangle and copy, paste in place, mirror it. But then I figured that might not answer the bigger question being asked.  :)
    Sandy McCauley
    Cutting with KNK Force, Maxx Air, Zing Orbit, Skycut C and D
    Over 90 free MTC videos: http://www.iloveknk.com/support/mtc-support/
    Latest MTC User Manuals: http://www.iloveknk.com/Support/user-manuals/
  • gbonneaugbonneau Member Posts: 23

    Great! I might have another question/comment but before let me answer your misunderstanding about the tool I requested. Indeed for people coming from the scrapbooking world the tool I am requesting doesn't seem to make sense. Note that I bought the KNK Zing for my wife who's doing scrapbooking.

    However I don't do scrapbooking. I'm a stained glass hobbyist. And as I saw her using the tool and application I was wowed. Make the Cut with the KNK Zing is very close to be one of the best tool that could be available on the market for stained glass. Make the Cut has much better autotrace tool and feature than other tools for stained glass that cost a thousand dollar with less feature. However it only miss a little. And in this context be able to split a single shape into 2 shapes like I explained in my example is a basic tool stuff. Indeed glass shape pattern are fused and joined together by a weld line.

    Yet you need to draw the pattern on a carton board and cut the individual shape to be used as a “shape pattern” for cutting glass. I was so excited to try Make the Cut as a stained glass design application that I decided to try it with my current project: A stained glass Victorian panel for a door entrance. The design is not finished yet but I am progressing quite fast as I master Make the Cut. See below my pattern in progress.



  • gbonneaugbonneau Member Posts: 23
    Great answers everyone and interesting points. Now can anyone on this forum tell me why the 5 steps I gave cannot be broken into 2 closed shapes. It seems to me this is a bug of the application. It doesn't seem to me a normal behavior. I am missing something?
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,575
    I'm sure there is atleast one other member here that uses make the cut for stained glass design too
    That design is quite impressive
    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • leslie6111leslie6111 Member Posts: 2,380
    I just want to point out that if you leave it as 2 closed shaped next to each other - such as the discussed 2 triangles that will be useful for a color coded guide for your glass, but the blade will travel twice along the path where they meet and not once. - so you will get a double cut there. @Gabe I think also works in glass - I do not know if it is the stained variety. We also have other glsss artists as well and some that make vinyl masks for glass etching. Would love to see pictures of your work.

  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,575
    Now I've seen the purpose I'm thinking the 2 close shape may allow you to also use a inset shadow to create the gaps
    I assuming there need to be a gap for the lead inbetween the pieces ???
    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • gbonneaugbonneau Member Posts: 23
    edited August 2016
    Indeed I need gap for the in between. I do use the duplicate, shadow, layer and other effect tool to create gap. However I need to start from a single shape which can have a complex path sometime and split it in 2 or many shapes. The rectangular example was only given to provide a simple case. Real life is more complex. Thus the need for a tool that can join 2 nodes and create 2 shapes from a single shape. Then once I am satisfied with the shape layout I create the gap. Thus there is no more issue with the blade traveling twice the same path as @leslie6111 pointed.
  • marsmars Member Posts: 1,118
    As you said the rectangle consists of 4 segments joined by 4 nodes. You can easily make the triangular shape you want using the node edit tools. Select a segment then right click on the node in one corner and click on delete node. This will make a single curved segment out of the 2 segments originally joined by the now deleted node. Select this segment and right click to bring up the menu and click on convert to line. Now you have one of your desired shapes. Right click and copy this shape. Use Ctrl-M and Ctrl-F to mirror and flip and then right click and select paste in place to put the copied shape right back on the mat. You are done. Sounds complicated but work through it once and you will see it's not. Welcome to the forum.
  • marsmars Member Posts: 1,118
    gbonneau said:
    Great answers everyone and interesting points. Now can anyone on this forum tell me why the 5 steps I gave cannot be broken into 2 closed shapes. It seems to me this is a bug of the application. It doesn't seem to me a normal behavior. I am missing something?
     When you break the corner nodes you actually wind up with 6 nodes on the mat.  There are 2 nodes at each broken corner.  So you can't tell which two diagonal  nodes you are connecting.  

    You can break or split (either works) immediately after breaking both corner nodes and you will have two paths to work with.  If you send them "to each it's own" layers you can show only one at a time and then draw your lines.

    BTW you can draw with the pen like your example or you can use node editing and use the "join node to closest node with line"  as long as both paths aren't visible else the nearest node is on the other path LOL

    There usually are multiple ways to do anything in MTC!

  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,575
    edited August 2016
    gbonneau said:
    OK! Using the instructions of @Crazy_Mr_Zing and digging in the user manual I believe I am close to a solution.

    1- Draw a rectangular shape.
    2- Break a corner node
    3- Break the opposite corner node
    4- Using the pen draw a line between the opposite broken nodes.
    5- Draw again with the pen a second line between the same broken nodes.



    You end with exactly what I want. However if I try to split or break the new shape I got the message: There have been no changes made since there is nothing to break. This seems strange since I would expect to get two rectangular triangle.
    I'm not sure it a bug there more than likely a reason one node is joined to rather than the other
    possibly it the closest node in the Z order on the page

    To explain I exploded the drawing and made one diagonal path dashed


    The are a number of way to insert a line between 2 node as Mars explain you can use the path edit tool select the path the right click on the open end node and select join to collect node with line
        This would work fine for the exercise but if there other open node closer may no work as desired 

    I will explain using the bezier tool (it directly under the pencil tool)

    1- Draw a rectangular shape.
    2- Break a corner node
    3- Break the opposite corner node
    4 -Select entire rectangle and perform break
    5 -Select one of the right angled paths only
    6- Move selection to new layer and hide that layer
    7- Using the bezier draw a line between the opposite broken nodes
           (click on the first node - move to the second node - right click on second  node to attach).
    8- Unhide the hidden layer
    5- Draw again with the bezier a second line between the same broken nodes.

    It all possible to use the pencil tool which has the proper name of Draw freehand lines

    This video is one from the user manual show many node join methods

    Make The Cut: Closing Open Shapes


    Another video i thought of

    Make the Cut Software - Conducting Node Surgery

    edit

    The things you find when your looking for something completely different I found this comment Gabe made long ago so its slightly dated

    There are a lot of webinars that cover node editing techniques. You can start with the one Andy did for the introduction of MTC 4.1. He describes all of the node editing tools and demonstrates how they all work. Here's the link.
    9/13/2011 vimeo.com/29173751

    More node editing in the 12/13/2011 webinar
    vimeo.com/33867219

    And a few other webinars that mention node editing.
    1/10/2012 vimeo.com/35599203
    1/17/2012 vimeo.com/35816120
    2/7/2012 vimeo.com/36644694
    4/3/2012 vimeo.com/39943925
    6/5/2012 vimeo.com/43773114

    That should give you a good start. Just copy and paste the links into your browser's address bar.

    Cheers,

    Gabe



    Post edited by Crazy_Mr_Zing on
    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • gbonneaugbonneau Member Posts: 23
    edited August 2016
    Ok using the comment of both @Crazy_Mr_Zing and @mars I am able to take a shape with a complex path and split it between the 2 nodes into 2 shapes. That's great. Its a complex sequence but at least it work. Now to copy a shape to a new layer seems to be an headache. What I am doing is:

    1- Copy the shape.
    2- Select the new layer
    3- Do a paste in a place within the new layer
    4- Delete the copied shape from the old layer.

    Is there a better way do move a shape to a new layer ?
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,575
    for this step 6- Move selection to new layer and hide that layer
     
    at the base of the layer bar the a button second from the left selection to new layer

    You could also use the method I mentioned further back in this discussion where you temporary store the shape in the clipboard
    Now I thought a little more that way maybe cleaner
    you could use keyboard shortcut Cut > CRTL+X    Paste > CTRL+SHIFT+V

    1- Draw a rectangular shape.
    2- Break a corner node
    3- Break the opposite corner node
    4 -Select entire rectangle and perform break
    5 -Select one of the right angled paths only
    6- Cut to clipboard or Ctrl +X
    7- Using the bezier draw a line between the opposite broken nodes
           (click on the first node - move to the second node - right click on second  node to attach).
    8- Paste in Place form Clipboard or CTRL+SHIFT+V
    9- Draw again with the bezier a second line between the same broken nodes.

    To create the line between the nodes you could use any of the methods
    pencil (draw freehand tool), Bezier tool, Join node to nearest node with line
    shown in the video Make The Cut: Closing Open Shapes
    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • gbonneaugbonneau Member Posts: 23
    Crazy_Mr_Zing  you got the solution to my need. That works. And quite happy since previously I had to do 16 steps with a new layer involvement. Now this bring it down to 9 steps. I own you a beer! I believe the coder of the software application is a guy named Andy? Can he please step in into this thread to let us know if adding a split in two tool make sense or I may just dream ?
  • leslie6111leslie6111 Member Posts: 2,380
    If you want to cut a shape in half not at an existing node if you right click on the node selection tool you can add a midpoint node. Then you can break that node and follow Crazy_Mr_Zing 's instruction from #2 onward.
  • Di-liteDi-lite Member Posts: 3,473
    I can be no help but I am impressed with your design and look forward to a photo of an end project.  The guys here are always helpful.  Personally I would put one of the split pieces onto another layer and then mess about with it.  They all remain visible unless you use the eye to hide it and they are all cuttable with MTC even when on different layers as long as all the eyes are open! 
    Have fun, Di, ID 14610
    UK, Cameo, Serif Draw, Win10.
    Link to My Craft Bazaar | Link to Skool | Force Bazaar - Archimedes
    Feel free to use anything in these links.
  • gbonneaugbonneau Member Posts: 23
    @Di-lite Once I finish the design I will post the mtc project gladly to the forum to provide an overview of the capability of Make The Cut with a stained glass project. I Still need a few days to adjust the "artistic" conception of the glass panel as well as technical mastering of MTC.

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