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Slipping Mat Ruining the Cut [Resolved]

CharoCharo Member Posts: 753
edited July 2016 in Resolved Issues
My mat is newly cleaned and re-tacked.  Knife is not chipped and does not have any paper in it.  There are no bits of paper stuck to pinch wheels.  Levers are DOWN at beginning of cut.  What has happened to my machine??  Or what have I done all of a sudden to cause this?
Post edited by Gabe on
Member 30818

Comments

  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,575
    when you cutting do you hear the mat slip ?
    if you mats is a little curved some it can catch on
    - the groove the side guides slide in at the front
    - where the lover back cover joins (very hard to see but below the rail the carriage runs on
    -top edge of the rail the carriage run on (usual the mat need to lift a little so supporting the mat at the front can help prevent this) 

    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • CharoCharo Member Posts: 753
    No.  It starts to slip immediately and I just discovered it is because the pinch wheels are not dropping down far enough for some reason.  After dropping the levers the mat STILL moves around when it is supposed to be tight.  
    Member 30818
  • leslie6111leslie6111 Member Posts: 2,380
    I see where you are going Bev, but with something that detailed, slow your speed, set the pressure lower and do a double cut which will be necessary at a lower pressure. Make sure your mat is very sticky and the paper well adhered. Also make sure the mat is not getting caught under the back lip of the machine which can make the mat move. You might also want to soom into your design and clean up any areas wheere the blade might get caught.
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,575
    SO with the lever in the lower position can you pull the mat out ?

    are the lever fully lowering ( the little ball behind the lever locating in the hole)

    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • leslie6111leslie6111 Member Posts: 2,380
    Did you get the new springs from knk?
  • leslie6111leslie6111 Member Posts: 2,380
    You might have to stake apart the levers again. Wipe the inside with a little wd40 and put them together again - but this time not lose the little ball bearings.
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,575
    I just remembered you had a little issue with a levers not so long ago
    have you had successful cutting since you got that all sorted out ?
    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • CharoCharo Member Posts: 753
    Yep @Crazy_Mr_Zing levers are fully lowering.  And I can STILL pull the paper out.  And I have had successful cutting since I repaired levers and retrieved those escaped ball bearings, until today.  @leslie6111  But isn't it strange that there is no problem cutting any of this intricate stuff, until the mat starts slipping?  But once it started slipping any other attempts I made the mat did not start out secured again.  I guess I will have to take the levers apart again (oh yes I forgot...Mr. Ron Smith did send me new springs for the levers and they are in place).  SO irritating!!
    Member 30818
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,575
    Are the levers stiff to move or easy ? and the bearing are definity locating in those small hold when lowered ?

    Now don't forget to cover up those holes so those bearing to run and hide again. Your not alone There are quite a few pass discussions of the bearing going to hide inside
    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • SandyMcCSandyMcC Member Posts: 7,647
    With the pinch wheels down, you should be able to pull or push the mat, in and out, but not rotate with your hands. 

    If that's the case, then we need more details.  For example, what material are you cutting and what settings are you using?  It could be related to the operation of the cutter versus the levers/pinch wheels themselves. 
    Sandy McCauley
    Cutting with KNK Force, Maxx Air, Zing Orbit, Skycut C and D
    Over 90 free MTC videos: http://www.iloveknk.com/support/mtc-support/
    Latest MTC User Manuals: http://www.iloveknk.com/Support/user-manuals/
  • leslie6111leslie6111 Member Posts: 2,380
    https://vimeo.com/48161721
    Sandy's video might be helpful, The zings levers are notoriously problematic.
  • CharoCharo Member Posts: 753
    @SandyMcC  I can rotate the mat.  And before this happened when pinch wheels were down I could not pull the mat out.  I am cutting regular Reflections card stock.  Settings are 145 force (I know that is high but I have been cutting successfully for months at that setting without cutting the mat and I can't get a good cut any other way....my blade is barely out of the holder).  Offset is 25.  Speed was 13 on the last cut because this file had lots of little pieces.  @Crazy_Mr_Zing the pinch wheels are not hard to operate and they move back and forth smack on top of those small holes.  @leslie6111  I watched Sandy's video again before I replaced the errant ball bearings to be certain I was doing it correctly.  One thing I have noticed:  in Sandy's video her handles have little plastic inserts; mine do not.  Could that have anything to do with this problem?  
    But what I totally don't get is why everything was working fine after replacing the escaped bearings until yesterday.
    Member 30818
  • SandyMcCSandyMcC Member Posts: 7,647
    edited July 2016
    The plastic inserts were used in the original pinch wheels. Your pinch wheels are a newer design.

    One thing to try... take some WD 40 and apply it to a cotton swab. Then dab the inside of the end cap, where the pinch wheel shaft goes into the end cap. The metal plate there needs to go up and down and perhaps it's catching.  Move the levers up and down so that the plate gets lubricated.  Meanwhile, I'll try to reach Chad, however you may want to go ahead and start a support ticket: 

    http://knkusa.com/support-ticket-request/

    UPDATE: I reached Chad and here is his response:


    chad [10:51 AM] It may just be hanging up a bit on one side. If you physically press down on the side(s) that are sticking up, it should drop down. This is where a q-tip with a little wd-40 wiped around the metal plate inside the hole each bar is attached to, it'll typically ease things up.
    Sandy McCauley
    Cutting with KNK Force, Maxx Air, Zing Orbit, Skycut C and D
    Over 90 free MTC videos: http://www.iloveknk.com/support/mtc-support/
    Latest MTC User Manuals: http://www.iloveknk.com/Support/user-manuals/
  • CharoCharo Member Posts: 753
    @SandyMcC Pressing down on one side did make the pinch wheels drop a bit.  I did take the levers apart again and apply the WD40.  Now the mat does not rotate from side to side but I can still pull it out when pinch wheels are down.  I sure don't remember being able to do that prior to this problem but memory is an iffy thing.   This is a newer mat however but I did get a decent cut.
     Thank you very much for contacting Chad (who is Chad?).  @leslie6111 told me about the WD40 last too but I was too discouraged to try it.  
    Now.  The first mat still slips around and ruins the cut totally.  This is my original mat and is also the one that got glitter embedded it in, evidently forever as it won't wash out.  Could this have anything to do with the slipping?  I remember a while back reading one of your posts that you can use a mat until it stops cutting; maybe this first mat has reached that point.

    Member 30818
  • leslie6111leslie6111 Member Posts: 2,380
    edited July 2016
    Try crafters companion stickaway - Tessersa put me on to it - it removes all the sticky from your mat for a clean start before you sticky them ( I use it to get buildup gone). But I would use it outside since it is a messy process. Should take the glitter off for good. You only need to replace a mat if it is too curled or cracked. Alenes heals the scratches  pretty good. You should see some of my mats from use with the force. LOL
  • SandyMcCSandyMcC Member Posts: 7,647
    You've always been able to pull the mat and push the mat in and out of the Zing, with the pinch wheels down. That's how cutters work... they move the move forward and backwards during the cut. So, are you saying one mat works but the other doesn't?  And just verify, you're using the two outer most pinch wheels and not relying on the middle one as one of the two?

    Chad is the VP of KNK USA. :)

    Sandy McCauley
    Cutting with KNK Force, Maxx Air, Zing Orbit, Skycut C and D
    Over 90 free MTC videos: http://www.iloveknk.com/support/mtc-support/
    Latest MTC User Manuals: http://www.iloveknk.com/Support/user-manuals/
  • CharoCharo Member Posts: 753
    @SandyMcC Yep my oldest mat full of glitter, even though just washed and re-stuck, still moves all around every which way, especially when nearing the top.  ALL pinch wheels are sitting on the mat...the one at the left, one at the right, and the one not so far from right.  I have never moved the middle one from where it was when cutter arrived.

    Thanks for telling me who Chad is.  I know about Ron Smith now, thanks to my losing the bearings inside the machine.
    Member 30818
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,575
    I don't know it this suggestion in useful

    with the zing power off and the pinch roller down the mat freely rolls in and out
    with the zing power on and the pinch roller down the mat rolls in and out but there is some resistance (be gentle)
    in either off or on you can not rotate the mat left and right

    Now I thought maybe your roller is not lowering all the way down so the pressure is not sufficient
    so thought testing with something way thinner may help determine this on your zing  so  I tried with a single sheet of 80gsm printer paper its exactly the same
    with the zing power off and the pinch roller down the paper freely rolls in and out
    with the zing power on and the pinch roller down the paper rolls in and out but there is some resistance
    in either off or on you can not rotate the mat left and right

    WD40 is a spray lubricant
    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • SandyMcCSandyMcC Member Posts: 7,647
    With the original mat inserted and pinch wheels down, can you manually rotate the mat by hand? 
    Sandy McCauley
    Cutting with KNK Force, Maxx Air, Zing Orbit, Skycut C and D
    Over 90 free MTC videos: http://www.iloveknk.com/support/mtc-support/
    Latest MTC User Manuals: http://www.iloveknk.com/Support/user-manuals/
  • CharoCharo Member Posts: 753
    edited July 2016
    @SandyMcC McC No.  But this morning neither mat will cut.  Both mats start slipping sideways.  When I press down slightly on the right side I can feel the bar drop a bit but it doesn't drop enough to hold the mats in place.  I did as you suggested and opened a ticket.  Something is wrong.  I don't think I should have to take apart those levers every morning and anyway it didn't change anything for long, even with the wd40 trick.
    Post edited by Charo on
    Member 30818
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,575
    If the lever are moving to the lowered position (fully up) but pinch roller is not going fully down
    I don't think that would be a lever problem as moving the levers down (pinch roller raise) actually does lift the roller but moving the levers up (pinch roller lower) actually just allows the roller to fall . Eg the lever do not push the roller down
    Hope that makes some sense
    So i would assume an resistance in the roller reaching the fully lowered position would be either a binding or lubrication issue inside behind the plate the lever are bolt to
    would it be possible something was dislodged in you ball bear finding expedition

    I support ticket is a good idea KNK might know exactly what points to apply some WD40
    Maybe send them a video or photos indicating the difference in the roller height
    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • CharoCharo Member Posts: 753
    @Crazy_Mr_Zing Well I suppose it would be possible, as I was turning the machine upside down etc trying to get the bearing out.  I was gentle but who knows.  One of the bearings was lodged in between wires but it was easy to get out with a pair of tweezers.  So I hope the smart KNK people can fix me; HATE being without a cutting machine now.  I actually HAND-CUT a paper dollhouse dresser and hated doing it.  LOL.
    Member 30818
  • SandyMcCSandyMcC Member Posts: 7,647
    If you cannot make the mat rotate by hand, then I don't think the issue is necessarily the pinch wheels.  What material are you cutting, how large are your shapes, and what are your settings? Can you see cut lines in your mat?  

    It's not unusual for the mat to skew when the blade is being forced through a material faster than it can cut that material. Something has to give... and that's usually the mat shifting.  
    Sandy McCauley
    Cutting with KNK Force, Maxx Air, Zing Orbit, Skycut C and D
    Over 90 free MTC videos: http://www.iloveknk.com/support/mtc-support/
    Latest MTC User Manuals: http://www.iloveknk.com/Support/user-manuals/
  • GabeGabe Moderator Posts: 4,595
    Did anyone ask what type of mats are being used?

  • CharoCharo Member Posts: 753
    @Gabe I am using the Zing Air mats that came with my machine.
    @SandyMcC  I do not see cut lines in my mat; at least not lines that I can't scratch out.  Force is high as I mentioned before but the blade is barely out of the blade holder.  It doesn't matter what shapes I am cutting; as soon as blade moves beyond about two or three inches up the mat the mat starts slipping and slidiing sideways and the cut is nowhere near where it is supposed to be.  It's cutting on top and over each cut and making a huge mess.  I am still cutting card stock, shapes were intricute to simple; it just doesn't matter.  Something is not holding the mat where it should be.  Oh yes I was cutting at speed 13 the last time I tried to cut something simple.
    Member 30818
  • SandyMcCSandyMcC Member Posts: 7,647
    Then definitely start a support ticket on this.  No one here will be able to diagnose this issue... you need Ron, again!
    Sandy McCauley
    Cutting with KNK Force, Maxx Air, Zing Orbit, Skycut C and D
    Over 90 free MTC videos: http://www.iloveknk.com/support/mtc-support/
    Latest MTC User Manuals: http://www.iloveknk.com/Support/user-manuals/
  • CharoCharo Member Posts: 753
    Mr. Ron Smith said I should take the machine apart again and put a dab of silicone grease or vaseline (I used the silicone grease) where the bar goes into the plate that holds it.  He thought I might see a bit of rubbing there.  I did finally see a spot of rubbing; seemed awful small to cause the huge problem.  But he was right as usual and my mats are no longer slipping around.  
    Member 30818
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,575
    Happy Dance Time I'm glad you machine is well again
    I've been missing reading about you creations
    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • Liz_ALiz_A Member Posts: 10,525
    @Charo - awesome good news! Yayyyy Ron...he knows cutters!
    Still using MTC but slowly migrating to SCAL. KNK cutters including the Force and Maxx Air continue to be my favourites. Fluent in other cutter languages.
  • CharoCharo Member Posts: 753
    @SandyMcC Upon re-reading this entire post I realized Chad said exactly what Ron told me to do.  I am sorry I didn't understand your message when I first read it....didn't realize you and Chad meant I was supposed to remove the end cap again.  
    Member 30818
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