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cutting cartons boxes - which cutter would you recommend [Resolved]

domEdomE Member Posts: 7
edited June 2016 in Resolved Issues
Hello,
  This is my first post. I am looking for cutter that can cut boxes for my products (skincare). When I say boxes, I mean the box/carton a product sits in on shelf at retail store (not the brown shipping boxes). A week ago I purchased Silhouette Cameo and getting dreaded 'registration mark sensor error'. I installed software onto 2nd computer, tried to add lighting to help sensors for Cameo and even choose different paper but no luck. I am either going to toss it out the window or stick my head in oven because I am used to buying something and getting it to work in reasonable time period. 

   So now I am looking for alternatives because maybe Cameo just isn't machine for my job. Below is my process that will hopefully give better idea of what I am trying to do:

Step 1:
1. Card stock is about 16 pt (not sure of lbs) and is glossy mint green. 
2. I print our product information via color laser printer on glossy green card stock (8.5 x 11).

All I want to do is find cutter that is capable of cutting an invisible outline (so no lines from outline show up on paper being cut) around the product text.  

I have added link here so you can see my box outline. I have another file with product information that sits inside of this outline. Below are cutters I am considering:

1. KNK Zing Air ($449)
2. Brothers ScanNCut ($400) 
3. Sizzix Big Shot Machine ($120) - would need to get die cut of box made to work with machine.

link to box outline: http://s33.postimg.org/6trfzkvyn/Empress_Carton_Scan044.jpg

Thanks so much for any suggestions
Dom
Post edited by SBryanW on

Comments

  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,574
    edited June 2016
    Hello Welcome to The Make the Cut Forum

    From what I read the silhouette cameo registration mark can be problematic some people seem to manage other have endless trouble
    It sounds like your printed registration marks are on green cardstock from what I read reg marks on anything but lighter colours can cause issues
    Have you tried a print and cut on light coloured card ?
    The other method I read of is affixing a white sticky labels to the position the reg marks would print although since you using a laser would they remain in place during printing

    The Brother is Currently not directly compatible with Make the Cut and therefore there are not to many users the are members on this forum so perhaps you would get a faster opinion of a forum or facebook group dedicated to the brother

    I know little about the sizzix apart from the die you would need to get made is called a steel rule die
    this would be the quickest method if you were making many many boxes
    I'm not sure if there a method for repetitively aligning to do a print and cut using a sizzix

    I'm not sure what 16pt card is either but if the Cameo cut it the the Zing should do it easily

    The zing has a laser Pointer which you manually align with the printed reg marks

    But before we go to far some questions
    How many boxes would you be wanting to make and how frequently ?
    What size are you boxes and what size cardstock do you which to use ?
    Do you Currently Use Make the Cut ? if not you can download a free demo version at http://www.make-the-cut.com/
    Are you a Windows User or a MAC USER ?
    What is your Budget ?


    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • Di-liteDi-lite Member Posts: 3,473
    Cameo's are very tricky to get to work with reg marks.  Once you've cracked the methodology it's a breeze.  Are you using a silhouette mat - absolutely essential for pnc.  Are you using MTC as you need to use a specific technique with this program.  If you are using Design then you need to go to a Cameo Forum for help.  I use a Cameo and it took some working out to get it to perform pnc using MTC which is my preferred program.  Hope you get it sorted.
    Have fun, Di, ID 14610
    UK, Cameo, Serif Draw, Win10.
    Link to My Craft Bazaar | Link to Skool | Force Bazaar - Archimedes
    Feel free to use anything in these links.
  • sandyjsandyj Member Posts: 821
    Before throwing it out the window (and I sympathize,  been there, done that with the cameos predecessor ), try coloring over the registration marks with a fine tip black sharpie.  Although that may not help in your case because of the dark background paper, it's worth a shot.

    If you need to cut many boxes, having each cut getting lined up with registration marks is a slow process.  What you could try is placing the paper on the mat in an exact spot, cutting it out, then seeing exactly where it gets placed.  THEN move the graphic on the computer so it prints in that spot, so that it is pre-lined up and you don't need the registration marks.  Does that make sense?  You can outline the corner of the paper on the mat with an ink pen, so you put it on the mat in the exact same spot each time, and mark the machine with a sharpie or a post it note so you feed it in to the machine at the same place each time.  So in effect, instead of trying to tell the machine where to cut with registration marks, find out where the machine WANTS to cut the shape, then put print the design in that spot.

    If you would prefer a different machine, you would be better off with one that aligns the registration marks manually, with a laser.  The Zing is a good choice, as is the sizzix eclips2.  I can't comment on the brother as I haven't used it.
    Just MY opinion, your milage will vary. Like "Andy" but with an "S"
  • domEdomE Member Posts: 7
    sandyj said:
    Before throwing it out the window (and I sympathize,  been there, done that with the cameos predecessor ), try coloring over the registration marks with a fine tip black sharpie.  Although that may not help in your case because of the dark background paper, it's worth a shot.

    If you need to cut many boxes, having each cut getting lined up with registration marks is a slow process.  What you could try is placing the paper on the mat in an exact spot, cutting it out, then seeing exactly where it gets placed.  THEN move the graphic on the computer so it prints in that spot, so that it is pre-lined up and you don't need the registration marks.  Does that make sense?  You can outline the corner of the paper on the mat with an ink pen, so you put it on the mat in the exact same spot each time, and mark the machine with a sharpie or a post it note so you feed it in to the machine at the same place each time.  So in effect, instead of trying to tell the machine where to cut with registration marks, find out where the machine WANTS to cut the shape, then put print the design in that spot.

    If you would prefer a different machine, you would be better off with one that aligns the registration marks manually, with a laser.  The Zing is a good choice, as is the sizzix eclips2.  I can't comment on the brother as I haven't used it.
    Hi Sandyj,
      Thats what I was thinking as I don't even know the point of registration marks. Once I get the alignment correct in software I could just save that file as template for future use. Then the only other issue would be to have the paper properly aligned on mat. 

       When you say try coloring over registration marks with sharpie...where exactly are these registration marks. Meaning where is the laser coming from on Silhouette machine?

    Thanks
    Carl
  • domEdomE Member Posts: 7
    Hello Welcome to The Make the Cut Forum

    From what I read the silhouette cameo registration mark can be problematic some people seem to manage other have endless trouble
    It sounds like your printed registration marks are on green cardstock from what I read reg marks on anything but lighter colours can cause issues
    Have you tried a print and cut on light coloured card ?
    The other method I read of is affixing a white sticky labels to the position the reg marks would print although since you using a laser would they remain in place during printing

    The Brother is Currently not directly compatible with Make the Cut and therefore there are not to many users the are members on this forum so perhaps you would get a faster opinion of a forum or facebook group dedicated to the brother

    I know little about the sizzix apart from the die you would need to get made is called a steel rule die
    this would be the quickest method if you were making many many boxes
    I'm not sure if there a method for repetitively aligning to do a print and cut using a sizzix

    I'm not sure what 16pt card is either but if the Cameo cut it the the Zing should do it easily

    The zing has a laser Pointer which you manually align with the printed reg marks

    But before we go to far some questions
    How many boxes would you be wanting to make and how frequently ?
    What size are you boxes and what size cardstock do you which to use ?
    Do you Currently Use Make the Cut ? if not you can download a free demo version at http://www.make-the-cut.com/
    Are you a Windows User or a MAC USER ?
    What is your Budget ?


    Hi Crazy_Mr_Zing,

    Thanks for your response. I answered your questions below:
       
    How many boxes would you be wanting to make and how frequently ? 
    I have 35 products. So I would want atleast 100 boxes per product so thats 3,500 boxes cut. 

    What size are you boxes and what size cardstock do you which to use ?
    I can get the cardstock in  any size as I want as the paper supplier has sheets left over from previous customer and its fits perfectly for us because its gloss and mint green. Right now I have him cutting me sheets of 8.5 x 11 so it can run thru my color laser printer. In my first post I attached link showing actual size of box. It fits snuggle around 20ml glass serum bottle (note; that project took few days in itself).

    Do you Currently Use Make the Cut ? if not you can download a free demo version at http://www.make-the-cut.com/ 
    I do not use Make the Cut yet.

    Are you a Windows User or a MAC USER ?
    Windows user. Tried Cameo on two separate laptops just in case my registration mark error was graphics driver issue.

    What is your Budget ?
    Budget is up to $1,000
  • domEdomE Member Posts: 7
    Di-lite said:
    Cameo's are very tricky to get to work with reg marks.  Once you've cracked the methodology it's a breeze.  Are you using a silhouette mat - absolutely essential for pnc.  Are you using MTC as you need to use a specific technique with this program.  If you are using Design then you need to go to a Cameo Forum for help.  I use a Cameo and it took some working out to get it to perform pnc using MTC which is my preferred program.  Hope you get it sorted.
    Hi Di-lite,
       I am using the silhouette mat and thats causing another issue. Its grabbing hold of card stock so much that when I peel it off its taking some of paper off back of card stock. Right now its only doing that on outer edge but wish it were not so sticky and I could just apply tape to corners or something. 
  • sandyjsandyj Member Posts: 821
    The registration marks are in the corners and print out with your design.  I found this post that deals with the problem your are having:

    http://www.silhouetteschoolblog.com/2015/03/secret-to-print-and-cut-registration.html

    I am not a fan of the think silhouette mats, I used cricut mats when I had a cameo - they are available at michaels, jo anns fabrics, often walmart or possibly where crafts or cricut products are sold.  They are thicker than the silhouette mats.  But anyway, you can de-stick the mat by placing a pillow case or towel on it, rubbing it down then removing.  It will leave little bits of lint that cover some of the stick.  Repeat until you get it the tackiness you want.  You can get more of the stick back by washing the mat - it will remove the stuff stuck to it while leaving the glue behind.  I use a plastic scrubby, other folks use baby wipes but make sure they are plain and not with oil or anything.

    You can also remove items from the mat easier by removing the mat from the paper, rather than the paper from the mat.  Flip the mat over so the paper is on the table and the mat on the top, then gently bend the edge of the mat up until the edge of the paper pops off,  Hold the paper down and peel the mat away.

    Just MY opinion, your milage will vary. Like "Andy" but with an "S"
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,574
    edited June 2016
    3500 boxes is quite a lot of cutting for a cameo actually it quite a lot of cutting period  
    even a zing is considered a hobby machine so not really intended for production work although I now seen both heavy used in the production environment

    The image you posted looks look a basic sketch it doesn't really give a concept of the size how many boxes would you get from a  8.5 x 11" piece

    Are you printing you Text component  from the silhouette studio ?

    You Wrote
    where exactly are these registration marks. Meaning where is the laser coming from on Silhouette machine?
    Are you not printing the reg mark ?
    The Reg Marks are applied to the project in the studio software and are printed on the cardstock when you print the text and graphic etc
    the cameo has a optical sensor (image a bit like a barcode reader works) the that is meant to automatically detect those printed reg marks
    On a cutter with a manual system like the zing it has a laser point you position the point so its aligned with each reg mark set that position in the cutting software 

    Bare in mind I haven't really used studio and never used a cameo but i imagine you project should look like this with the 3 reg marks 
    i did a quick mock up of you box



    Sandyj raised good point do you really need to be using print a cut really necessary
    usually print and cut is so you can precisely cut around a printed shape
    the reg mark are so the cutter know exactly where the printed shape is positioned

    In you case I imaged you have a product name and maybe s extra text about the product so if that was a little off  eg 0.5mm -1mm  it probably would matter

    so if the printed content of the design eg the text is always printing in the same position and you position and align the card on the same place on the matt every time the box shape should cut close the the same position in relation to the printing in close to the same position every time

    eg if you always position you card stock on the 0.5" line



    Just a tip if you fill the box cutout shape with some colour  you will be able check you alignment and adjust
    Post edited by Crazy_Mr_Zing on
    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • domEdomE Member Posts: 7
    edited June 2016
    I put youtube video up of my process. Hopefully someone who uses Cameo can spot easy fix :)  At this point I am not even worrying about alignment but just want to see machine cut outline of box. 

    here is video: https://youtu.be/vk0vWmwnv7Q
  • Di-liteDi-lite Member Posts: 3,473
    You raise several points in your chat above.  First the mat quickly loses stickiness that is excessive, secondly a trick that people use is an old well washed towel and pat it over the sticky side of the mat to lessen the stickiness.  Personally I just cut two or three items to reduce the stickiness and very carefully lift the card off the mat.  I haven't come across the paper fracturing but have had tearing as it's difficult to lift off.  A small painter's palette knife is a useful tool to lift off fine detail without tearing.
    Next the reader a a photo sensitive thingy that looks for the square of the reg marks and takes that as it's starting point.  Positioning both the reg mark and the card on the mat is critical as is locating the mat into the machine correctly - very limited area surveyed for the mark.  You need to get your printer to print the reg marks along with the item to be cut.  It might help if you are using an Epsom to turn off the borders limiter in the printer format.
    What size is the card.  I use full pressure and full speed in the settings otherwise it will take an awful long time to cut out.  If you are using MTC then it should cut with not problems.  The most I have cut in a day is about 50 sheets of plain squares and that was an all day job, using two mats and have a mat loaded ready to drop into the machine.
    Since you are trying to set up a commercial set up how many a week will you need to cut - the Cameo can handle a lot of cutting but if you are thinking you might need to cut a hundred or more a day then you might need to consider getting a commercial vendor to cut your boxes out or invest in two or more machines to do it.  
    If you need more help setting up your files for the Cameo let me know but make sure you let me know what size the card is you are using and that you are using MTC - I do not use Design as I can't get on with it.  The problem I find that if you are using A4 then you lose an 1" of the page to the setting up process.  I haven't worked with A3 yet but I'm guessing the same principles apply.  I still have to find out if my printer will handle 12 x 12 but I'm suspicious that it wont.  Not sure any of this helps.
    You need to work out how many you want to cut and whether it is feasible to use the Cameo for this work - you might find you are looking at a much bigger outlay for a more advanced commercial cutter.
    Have fun, Di, ID 14610
    UK, Cameo, Serif Draw, Win10.
    Link to My Craft Bazaar | Link to Skool | Force Bazaar - Archimedes
    Feel free to use anything in these links.
  • Di-liteDi-lite Member Posts: 3,473
    I've just looked at your video - it is looking for the reg marks which you have not printed onto your print - you need to print what is on your screen and somewhere in Design works click print reg marks - haven't a clue where tho.  There should be a black square top left and three angles around the outside of the item to be cut.  It won't cut without the reg marks like your require.  It would cut if you have reg marks turned off but then you would lose the accuracy of centering the writing where you require it to be.
    Have fun, Di, ID 14610
    UK, Cameo, Serif Draw, Win10.
    Link to My Craft Bazaar | Link to Skool | Force Bazaar - Archimedes
    Feel free to use anything in these links.
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,574
    edited June 2016
    I'm wondering if I totally confused you
    are you You still trying to do a print and cut ?
    Are you Printing from within Silhouette Studio?
    I can't see any registration marks printed on you cardstock?
    are they there and just not showing in the video against the green ?

    Although I don't use sil studio i would have expected your print out to look like this
    with the 3 reg marks
    Post edited by SBryanW on
    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • Di-liteDi-lite Member Posts: 3,473
    The print out should look like this - They are using silhouette design not MTC.

    I've added the square and the angle to show you what your printout should look like
    @Crazy_Mr_Zing - they are not using MTC and do not realise that this site is for people who use MTC - hopefully this will point them int the right direction.  

    The home site for Design is not very good.  People do not seem to understand there for some reason.  The person needs to not only add reg marks but set it to print them when they send it to their printer for the Cameo to see them.  They do not cut but allow the cameo to locate the cutting item.  If you look at your video you will see that it is searching around for the black block.
    Have fun, Di, ID 14610
    UK, Cameo, Serif Draw, Win10.
    Link to My Craft Bazaar | Link to Skool | Force Bazaar - Archimedes
    Feel free to use anything in these links.
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,574
    edited June 2016
    @Di-lite that odd my screen in Sil Studio show them that what be I see in domE's video that are your way I fixed the image now
    Thank You that may have prevent even more confusion

    Post edited by Crazy_Mr_Zing on
    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • domEdomE Member Posts: 7
    edited June 2016
    I don't want anything to do with reg marks. They confuse me and don't see point of them. Can I just turn it off and test where machine will cut. Once I know where machine cuts...I can adjust in photoshop (which is where I print from) where the text sits. Instead of using nice paper for alignment testing I could just use plain copier paper. 

    Thanks

  • SandyMcCSandyMcC Member Posts: 7,646
    I'm not a Silhouette owner any longer, but I'm reading the manual and it says that the software asks you if you want it to detect reg marks when you send the job to cut. Are you not seeing that pop up?

    BTW, I don't think what you want to do is going to work.  But you can certainly give it a try.  
    Sandy McCauley
    Cutting with KNK Force, Maxx Air, Zing Orbit, Skycut C and D
    Over 90 free MTC videos: http://www.iloveknk.com/support/mtc-support/
    Latest MTC User Manuals: http://www.iloveknk.com/Support/user-manuals/
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,574
    edited June 2016
    Let me first confirm something, on every attempt to do this you have always printed your design from photoshop not from silhouette studio ? 
    If you not printing your project from Silhouette Studio that is the cause of the print and cut not working  as silhouette studio adds the 3 reg mark to you design when printing

    The machine is looking for reg mark that have not been printed

    The reg marks are there so the cameo knows where on the sheet of paper the design is positioned , if at a slight angle and if when printed the size is slightly different from the design

    Maybe this might help explain
    I'm not that good at explaining but here goes

    Lets say your the top left corner of you design is 4" from the left paper edge and 5"  from the top paper edge
    the machine first needs to know where the left edge and the top edge is
    then it can measure down and across and start

    Now with the reg marks
    imagine a line drawn between the 3 reg marks to form a right angled triangle
     
    now Lets say your the top left corner of you design is 3" from that left line and 4" from the top line
    the machine detects the reg marks automatically
    so it now know where the virtual left line is and where the virtual top line is
        (also the angle those line are )

    so now it knows to move right 3" from the left line and down 4" from the top line then start to cut the design
       (as you design is not a square it a little more involve but hopefully you get the idea)

    also by having the 3 reg points it also can detect the angle
    eg if the paper is placed on the mat on a angle
         if the mat is feed into the cutter on a angle
         if the design was printed slightly on an angle

    also because the machine can measure the distance between the marks it can adjust for any difference in size the occurred during printing

    Now The non print and cut method may not work
    With other cutters we call it WYSIWYG  (What You See is What you Get) so the cutter will cut the design where its position on the mat on the screen of silhouette studio

    The machine still needs to now the position of the mat so it knows measure across x" and down Y" and cut the design 
    on other machine we use the laser point to say this is the corner of the mat measure from there

    so as we are only telling the machine one corner of the mat it is not as precise
        there no way to detect slight discrepancies in position, angle and and size

    on the silhouette I'm not sure how the is detected or if it that precise

    I found a video that might help

    I think its a great idea to use white printer paper first once you get your cut to work then you could try on the green



    Post edited by Crazy_Mr_Zing on
    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • domEdomE Member Posts: 7
    edited June 2016
    mystery solved. I printed from Silhouette software and it printed registration marks. Needle number 3 worked. Thanks to everyone who helped. Very grateful. Is there way to score lines also with machine so I don't have to manually when folding box? thank you
  • Di-liteDi-lite Member Posts: 3,473
    @domeE  If you have an embossing/score tool for you cameo and are using reg marks the art is to put your printed page in - and cut, without taking the page out put in the embossing tool open the score page and send to cutter.  It's a two part process which is why you need the reg marks!.
    Have fun, Di, ID 14610
    UK, Cameo, Serif Draw, Win10.
    Link to My Craft Bazaar | Link to Skool | Force Bazaar - Archimedes
    Feel free to use anything in these links.
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 3,574
    edited June 2016
    Happy Dance Time !!!

    I think You could add lines and set to to dashed cuts

    Now this might scare you but I think it would be quite simple to recreate your boxes completely in Silhouette Studio

    Boxes are really just basic shaped joined together

    not sure if the sizing correct as I just guess using the image you posted  the image

    The Design


    And the Print Out






    You can even paste in your text 
    Here's a quick Video Link on paste in text
    Post edited by Crazy_Mr_Zing on
    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
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