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New cutters... two blades... for what?

tuicarlostuicarlos Member Posts: 117

I always recommend to my students to stay up-to-date in terms of technology but also to avoid the immediacy. Let the tests for the more impulsive shoppers. However, it's been awhile since the first cutters with two blades system were released and some questions hang in the oxygen. What to say to someone who is buying its first cutter? Buy the better meets your needs but also the most current model. Now what to say to someone who is replacing its old cutter? In the same way that the promise of connecting all the devices in line using just USB cables was never fulfilled or the Windows multitasking that is still not 100% true, this story of two blades looks like more about a car with two steering wheels. You can turn right using one of them and than you can turn left by using the other one but you’ll never be able to do both simultaneously because the car has only one axis that moves. Except using a blade + a Pen or using two pens with different colors or a new blade for the details + a used blade for straight cuts or scores, could you add here other advantage or tell us about your experience with this new system of two blades?


Comments

  • Di-liteDi-lite Member Posts: 3,003
    Having two blades means I can load a pattern and only have to set all the parameters up once and then send to the cutter for it to complete the project all in one go - instead of two tries needing to reset the blade/score or pen each time.  I know that the alignment will be correct for each of the tools that I have set up and that I can sit back whilst it deals with all the tasks.  I still have wiring spaghetti as a two bladed machine does mean less wires!!  LOL.  With the one blade machine I had to use perforated lines for scoring to ensure that the whole cut in one go and that risks pieces tearing off.  I am using the Force and had a sharp learning curve to learn it's format as opposed to the Cameo which was send to cutter and cut!!
    Have fun, Di, ID 14610
    UK, Cameo, Serif Draw, Win10.
    Link to My Craft Bazaar | Link to Skool | Force Bazaar - Archimedes
    Feel free to use anything in these links.
  • SandyMcCSandyMcC Member Posts: 6,904
    I don't know of anyone using two blades in a dual head cutter. But being able to score and cut popup cards and boxes has been a REAL time saver for me personally. I no longer have to remember to turn on/off layers and change settings between scoring and cutting.  I love having dual heads on the Force.
    Sandy McCauley
    Cutting with KNK Force, Maxx Air, Zing Air
    Need help with your KNK? Visit this link: http://knkusa.com/contact/
    KNK / MTC Videos: http://bit.ly/1kmAcoO
    Latest KNK / MTC User Manuals: http://www.iloveknk.com/Support/user-manuals/
  • Liz_ALiz_A Member Posts: 9,235
    @tuicarlos - I cannot think why anyone would purchase a cutter to have the ability to use two blades...that makes no sense. I did purchase the Force because it has the ability to load TWO TOOLS. That could be a combination of blade and embosser, blade and engraver, blade and pen, or pen and pen (two different coloured pens/markets, etc), just to name a few combinations. Like Sandy, I love the dual heads. I wouldn't but another cutter that did not have this feature.
  • tuicarlostuicarlos Member Posts: 117
    edited February 6
    @Liz_A - We can discuss about terminologies but my intention here was reach any kind of people using a very popular name. But I encourage you to try searching online for "two blades cutter machine". You'll be surprised that it terminology is used by ordinary people like me and some companies. Also you'll discover that two blades make sense if you've a big production, like me. There is a lot of "dual heads" using two blades out there. Here is just one example. Don't think... enjoy it!


    Post edited by tuicarlos on
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 2,527
    When the video first started I didn't see the second blade holder so I was thinking this must have to separate carriages to be able to cut 2 stickers at a time Then I realised that the 2 sticker were identical
    Quite ingenious for mass production
    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • Liz_ALiz_A Member Posts: 9,235
    @tuicarlos - ok this is a different concept from the dual head on most of the popular craft or hobby brand cutters currently on the market - only one head is actively cutting or drawing, etc. during the cut, and the other head is up and not engaged. This machine featured in the video, and the layout of the items being cut, are definitely of a mass production league, and with efficiency in mind.
  • tuicarlostuicarlos Member Posts: 117
    edited February 6
    @Liz_A - That was my intention with this post: to discuss the pros and cons of using the system of two blades or two heads as you prefer call it. However, your reply made me feel like a fish out of the water but I'm confident that this forum is for everyone who needs some help or want to help somebody else on MTC, regardless of your equipment or the size of your production. Also, I don't think this is a different concept but rather a genius idea of positioning couples of shapes to be cut simultaneously using two blades. I'd call that as a “Three Head System.” One head thinking and two cutting. Makes sense now someone buying a cutter to use two blades, don't you think?

  • Liz_ALiz_A Member Posts: 9,235
    @tuicarlos - I wasn't trying to demean anyone, with the cutters that we have and the way they work, using two blades at a time, which cannot act in unison, it just didn't make sense. I can see having a cutter that does this, if I wanted to be able to mass product things, this would be the cat's meow.
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 2,527
    edited February 7
    I don't have the force or any of the other other dual head cutter
    I'm guessing if any of them actually allowed both blades to be down at the same time it would be possible to do similar to the machine in the video the limiting factor being the space between the 2 blades

    Crazy thinking time

    Really Crazy .... if you had 2 old cutters lying around and like to tinker you could rob a carriage from one and add it to the other so both carriages are fixed to together and travel as one the up / down put may be a sticking point the left right travel space might pose issue as well ... a Frankencutter ...

    Only slightly crazy ... What about a double blade holder adapter

    OK must be time I took my medication lol
    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • SandyMcCSandyMcC Member Posts: 6,904
    @Liz_A and I were just trying to answer your question, as stated. You included a photo of the Force in your initial post, so I assumed you were specifically directing your question about why KNK USA would produce a cutter with two heads. Three owners of the Force ( @Di-lite , @Liz_A , and I) answered why we own the Force for that very purpose.  

    A production machine, such as the one in the video you linked, is a different type of dual head cutter and makes perfect sense for that particular application.  What the hobby market has been requesting is NOT a machine with two cutting heads working in unison, but a machine that can utilize any combination of two tools. That's the reason the KNK Force was designed as such.

    I applaud you for teaching students about BOTH kinds of cutters. It amazes me to still meet new people who have no clue that even single head cutters exist! 
    Sandy McCauley
    Cutting with KNK Force, Maxx Air, Zing Air
    Need help with your KNK? Visit this link: http://knkusa.com/contact/
    KNK / MTC Videos: http://bit.ly/1kmAcoO
    Latest KNK / MTC User Manuals: http://www.iloveknk.com/Support/user-manuals/
  • tuicarlostuicarlos Member Posts: 117
    edited February 7
    @SandyMcC - I don’t teach about cutters, like I said I recommend “tools” to my students so, as I never tried a “dual head” cutter before and as I never think like “I’m right… the Bible is wrong”, I would like to have an honest and reasonable opinion from some members here, I started this post with the best intention I could. My main question behind that introduction is about the legitimate this feature but it should be on the second round but, as I can see and for some reason, @Liz_A  and you are not interested going forward with me on this. That's okay! I apologize if I made both of you feel obligated to answer my question. It was not my intention. Also, it was not my intention make any kind of critic about KnK Force, not on this post. Observe that I used a cropped image just to show a "dual head" system. I can try to find another place to discuss about this issue because this is new and very interesting but I still think this is the best place in the world to do that because we have people here from all over the world and with different views. Also, I don’t believe that this forum is for hobbyist only. I’ll keep this post open and I hope that someone help me on this in the future. Thanks by the way!

    Post edited by tuicarlos on
  • tuicarlostuicarlos Member Posts: 117
    edited February 7
    @Crazy_Mr_Zing - I think that Chad will hire you soon. LOL!

    I agree with you that some cutters can’t do the same saw in that video because the distance between two blades holders and the instructions in line. However, you can use up to 10 Silhouette cutters together with Silhouette Studio Business Edition software, for example, but it’s very expensive too.

    So, I think that a new firmware wouldn’t solve the problem unless some hardware modifications, like an adjustable adapter to open more the distance between both blade holders. That means we can only expect a new machine to be able to do that way. The good news is that it’s possible and we’ll have it very soon, I guess.

    I’m not intending to be polemic but regardless what the propaganda try to say, I’m not 100% convinced that cutters like KnK Force and Silhouette Cameo 3, for example, are dual heads. I prefer call it as Two Blade Holders System instead. Therefore, I always use quotation marks when I mention that term for cutters like these. We should call "head" for something that has a total independence. Using a printer to compare, there is more than one inkjet (one for each tank) but only one head printing because there is only one direction. If you play piano you know exactly which dual heads really means.

    I can imagine something like unattaching the two blade holders or a second axis to hold a second head or even more two or more cold laser flash cutting with total independence… if I’m not crazy like you... LOL.

  • SandyMcCSandyMcC Member Posts: 6,904
    I'm enjoying this topic! :)    It's made me think about the differences between these two types of dual head cutters. 

    Having both heads drop down at the same time seems quite easy to accomplish.  However, since the two heads have to be cutting the exact same shape at the same time, it would require some kind of calibration to make sure the distance between the two blade tips matches perfectly with the spacing between the repeats for any given file.  Manually moving the two heads apart wouldn't be precise enough, right? You would need that to be controlled to within at least 0.1 mm, thus an added function within the firmware. Further, since printers have their own added error, you couldn't just say, well, the software tells me that distance between the repeats is exactly 4 inches. It might be 4.01 inches based on how the printer prints. 

    Anyhow, never say never! I don't see this as a viable enhancement to the Force but perhaps on a future dual-head model, this could be an option. 
    Sandy McCauley
    Cutting with KNK Force, Maxx Air, Zing Air
    Need help with your KNK? Visit this link: http://knkusa.com/contact/
    KNK / MTC Videos: http://bit.ly/1kmAcoO
    Latest KNK / MTC User Manuals: http://www.iloveknk.com/Support/user-manuals/
  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 2,527
    edited February 7
    So true I wnet and watch the video as I thought maybe it had Registration marks on every row, appears not there appears to be  black square on one edge maybe every 12". They also appear to have a health bleed on the stickers

     Reminded me of a book I read as a child "Danny Dunn's Homework Machine"


    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • tuicarlostuicarlos Member Posts: 117
    edited February 8
    @Crazy_Mr_Zing - You got the idea! There are many other models of cutters out there. It was the first video I saw and I posted here just to show that calling this type of cutter of Two Blade System is not wrong. However, it’s a good example of a more productive technology. @SandyMcC said in another post that we always need more and I agree because it’s not a hobby for me, I do this for living and I depend of the production from that cutter.

    When I watched this video at the first time (you made me watch it again) I noticed that as the sticker paper coming as a roll, the reading of the Registration Marks was made once in the beginning and then the software simply repeated but seems to be even a reading every 12in but using just one mark. Weird!

    More interesting is that this cutter is called as a Two Blades and not Two Heads or Dual Heads. That's because although the two blades are cutting at the same time, the second works as a slave, as you illustrated above. "To be or not to be"... an excellent idea for KnK: with a little more distance between the two blade holders and a small modification in the software and firmware we'll have a powered Force.

  • Crazy_Mr_ZingCrazy_Mr_Zing Member Posts: 2,527
    Some part of the Force's firmware has been made open source (probably the wrong term) to allow those so inclined to create their own home brew version
    I recall very early on someone wanting to make printed circuit board working on a version for that
    I think a few have github pages documenting this

    Crazy thinking again but if the second blade holder clamp was made able to do the same as the first blade holder clamp

    Behold Mark II of the Dual Blade holder
    Maybe add some more to it  that would operate the left and right end of travel limit switches



    I Use Zing Air, Make The Cut - Pop Card Studio, WinXP- Win7 -Win10
    Paper Modellers I Revere Marc Hagan-Guirey ----- Yoshinobu Miyamoto ----- Peter Dahmen
    Gallery ID #26944 ----- Link to My Cloud Have a Look your Welcome to Make Use of the Files
  • SandyMcCSandyMcC Member Posts: 6,904
    I'm guessing that the reading every 12 inches is simply to correct for "drag"... which is the result of friction causing cuts to become offset after a certain distance.  That makes a lot of sense and would be necessary if you're performing a LONG continuous PNC from a pre-printed roll, as shown in that video.  Cool stuff!  I wonder how much that particular cutter costs... It might be worth it because a lot of technology is needed in making it work and it could be years before we see something like that in the hobby world. 
    Sandy McCauley
    Cutting with KNK Force, Maxx Air, Zing Air
    Need help with your KNK? Visit this link: http://knkusa.com/contact/
    KNK / MTC Videos: http://bit.ly/1kmAcoO
    Latest KNK / MTC User Manuals: http://www.iloveknk.com/Support/user-manuals/
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